Recommended Game Version

by **roncli** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:18 am

Forgive me, his post came directly after Drakona's, and the ensuing response a few posts down were directed at her. No, she does not belittle. Drakona explains with patience and detail. Lothar's just going to tell you straight up how it is. Jediluke is another story entirely.

I was going to write a few paragraphs on Jediluke, but apparently I bash him enough on the podcast, so I'll TL;DR: If this were the WWE, Jediluke would be the main heel of the DCL roster. He is quite literally the alpha male of competitiveness on this ladder, and people hate him for that. He seems to get away with murder on the forums, in match comments, and in getting people to play levels of his choosing, and people hate him for that. And he's occasionally pretty good at the game, and people REALLY hate him for that.

Yeah, there's obviously history that goes beyond this thread and all the pent up frustration is coming out now. As I stated in another thread, I don't think bahamut is the best at communicating, not because he doesn't want to but because he's not been able to do it on a level that most of us can understand. This doesn't make him a less valued member of the community, it just means people have to work a bit harder to understand what the issues are. I can't say I understand them fully, and there seems like there's a lot of things adding up.

by **roncli** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:27 am

As for Retro, there is a misunderstanding with what multiplying primaries and secondaries is for, and how it applies to the community. The DCL has declared x4 a "subgame" that is not part of the core skill set for the DCL. Even missile heavy levels like Wrath and Take2 WITHOUT multiplying missiles are shunned these days from being "core". What the DCL does acknowledge, though, is that for some people on the ladder this subgame is actually FUN to play competitively, myself included. Further, multiplying primaries and secondaries is not just a 1v1 or a DCL thing... it is VERY much needed in Rangers anarchy and team anarchy games. I cringe whenever a big game is started without these, because then you get pilots which are already damn skilled in the game WITHOUT a weapon imbalance now wrecking your face even harder because they've got all the weapons and you spent the last 3 minutes flying around and didn't find a single powerup. Descent already has a skill gap problem that turns people off to the game, there's no need to amplify it, and using the multipliers is a way to make it better.

If someone on this ladder thinks they're being forced to play an x4 missile game, quite frankly they're being played. No one is ever forced to play an x4 missile game on this ladder, unless they happen to hold the x4 trophy, which you have to get by playing an x4 missile game to begin with.

And yeah, there are things that I've suggested to Drakona to add that she's quite literally told me no straight up, because of what it would affect within the community. I have commit rights on the Retro source code, and I still can't get NEARLY everything I want. Like D3-style weapon respawn, better single player support for speedruns, and more. But I think that's fair. We're not the developers of the game, we're doing this for the people who PLAY Retro. If we screw up enough things, people are going to stop playing, and quite frankly Rebirth is not in a competitive state. (That may change with 0.60, but who knows when that's happening.)

As for the issue at heart, frame cap for things that were frame-dependent in vanilla NEED to be capped in Retro because ship bobbing, fusion bumping, and homing missiles at 200 FPS is BS. However, I believe they should all be capped at the SAME FPS. Having fusion shake not the same as homing missiles is an oversight because Drak didn't know about the 20 FPS cap for fusion shake when she decided on a 25 FPS caps for homers. I'm pretty convinced that we should at least try a 25 FPS cap for fusion shake as well and see what happens.

However, we need to keep in mind that bahamut's experience with fusion shake is not going to match yours, or mine, or Drakona's, or Zico's, or anyone's. And that really is the ultimate responsibility that Retro has... trying to find a balance that satisfies the majority of the community.

by **Jediluke** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:40 am

It was witty sarcasm. Not a genuine statement meant to condescend.

And for the record...I had NOTHING to do with the multiplying of weapons. I became aware of the feature when it launched. Apparently it was for the primaries mainly...no one saw it coming that multiplying the secondaries would become a 'thing'.

The one thing I DID push for...was colored smart missile blobs....guess what....I didn't get it.

I did get a 'non competitive' feature put in. I got auto demo starting w/ demo name suggestion.

I get a lot of Drakona's attention and we spend a good bit of time together talking and playing Descent...so I can see how someone might assume that I get favors put into retro for me because of this. You would be wrong though, she is very impartial and practical and can't be bribed. I don't get favoritism but I do get priority as it relates to the few games she's capable of playing these days. I'll take that over features in Descent.

Bahamut, despite whatever is going on between us right now, (which is surprising to me honestly)...I would personally miss your presence in this community if you left. It's fun to have a pilot willing to play a lot and who is also a challenge due to his skill.

Also...I still hope you come to the LAN. It would not be the same without you there.

by **LotharBot** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:06 am

by **Sirius** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:20 pm

by **bahamut** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:02 pm

I am coming, for you david, and I do not mean for this to separate you and I, I enjoy your presence
Roncli; I appreciate you
Drakona, I didn't mean to speak down about your work, I just was wondering why the homers were capped and not fusion..
as for myself, I am working on issues, and will be playing this game for the entirety, I appreciate everything you guys have done, and will never forget it either.

by **birdseye** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:18 pm

Just wanted to clarify that I was simply conveying some things I've repeatedly heard from many parties. I thought it would be useful to get it out there. I don't claim to know what actually happened between anyone.

There just seemed to be a disconnect between the admins and some of the other ladder folk, I thought getting some of this stuff out was better than letting it fester behind the scenes. Fix da problem, make everyone smile.

by **Behemoth** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:34 pm

I feel like the mouse control could be fine tuned a bit more, I had noticed before, but it hadn't really stuck out in my mind that retro feels like with even sensitivites on both axis, it feels like mouse moves more on yawing, than on pitch, which is the main difference i've noticed, the speed itself isn't much of a problem i don't think.
Roncli, perhaps we could meet up in chat soon to discuss a couple things?

by **Sirius** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:46 am

It does. The turn rate cap in D1 is lower vertically than horizontally. Unless you mean, e.g., it scales to the cap differently in x and y axes.

by **Drakona** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:19 am

Well, the ship moves more on yawing than on pitch. It doesn't factor that back into mouse sensitivity, at least not that I can see from a quick look at the code and a quick in-game test. If you draw a tiny square with your mouse, tiny enough that you don't hit the speed cap on pitch, the nose of your ship will draw a square. If you start moving the mouse fast enough to hit that cap, though, (and it's very low), you'll start drawing rectangles.