descentchampions.org

The season switchover is tonight. As we usually do when the season switches, we're updating the list of core levels. A level makes it onto the core list if it's in the top 10 levels played by four popularity measures (total matches played, pilots who have played it once, pilots who have played it twice, pairs of pilots who have played it), and levels that are in the top 10 in two measures or more are marginal -- we review them, and they usually make the cut, if they're close enough on the other measures that we feel they're broadly played.

One thing we've done in the past is remove levels from consideration that don't showcase the whole game. For example, Ugh has made the cut statistically a couple seasons, but regardless of how popular it is, we didn't feel that it was core.

Well, so -- a level came up in the statistics this time around that I want to run by the community, because this one's a bit of a judgement call, like Ugh:

Logic x4

We talked about it a bit, as missile-heavy levels have historically been controversial, have historically been something that Jediluke and Merl and I mostly played and other pilots humored us. Had this been last season, I would have just thrown it out without a second thought. But looking at the statistics for this season, I see a lot of Logic x2, Logic x4, Ascend x4, between pilots that I didn't even know liked the game. And I've heard more than one pilot say something to the effect that it's a game they need to know to be competitive on DCL. If that's true, the level belongs on the core list.

So that's the critical question: Do you see excellence in Logic x4 as an important part of what it means to be good at Descent?

This is not a voting thing. I just want to get a feel for how the community as a whole feels about that.

The stakes -- core levels are used by the random level picker. You may not use that a lot. Where it comes into play is that if you are challenged for your rank, your opponent has the right to insist on using a random level, so core levels are the absolute minimum set that you need to be ready to defend. I'm not sure that has ever actually come up, but that's what they're for, and what they're symbolic of.

I do run the random level picker on a regular basis. Mostly because I can't decide what to do on a regular basis.

Anyway, I am leaning towards "this is OK" but not strongly... it feels a bit odd but it's a valid gametype and not yet really far out on the missile spam (like e.g. MegaNysa or Pillbox would be). Athena is already very heavy on the missiles; Logic is sort of like a version of that with more stuff in the way. Less space to dodge but more opportunities to not need it; you just have to be prepared for surprises from around blind corners which is fairly standard.

Couple things though:
1) Have we ever had x# variants in the random level picker before? Do people understand that it means secondaries, not primaries?
2) We're not going to wind up with 4 unique levels out of a 10-level list in the random picker because there are three different versions of the same level, right?

the thing to understand about the core list is that it's our way of recognizing what the community is playing. It's not that I personally love Logic x4, it's that Logic x4 (and Ascend x4 and Logic x2 and other smart-heavy levels) are being played by a lot of people.

It's unlikely we'd have 4 variants of the same level, simply because I don't know of any level that has 4 distinct variants that are all played heavily (Logic x3 and x4 play basically the same.) But we might end up with 2 distinct variants of a level -- like Athena and Athena NH, or Logic and Logic x4 -- if they play very differently from each other AND if people consider it to be a totally valid "normal" Descent experience. So the question is basically, is it more normal than ugh? Is it normal enough that you think it's legit to run into in the random level list?

I personally don't feel that the same level should be in the core list more than once. I almost feel as though x2/3/4 should be a modification that's agreed upon by the participating pilots, rather than part of the actual level itself.

I think that the scores are generally quite different if you play regular Logic vs Logic x4. The levels look the same but play differently.

It was popular enough apart from regular Logic to be up for consideration. Not all levels are good when u x4 the secondaries...shocking I know!....but Logic x4 is!

How do you feel about NYSA and Mega-NYSA? They're the same shell of a level, but I think if we lived in a bizarro ladder where everyone played both of those, they'd deserve separate spots on the list. It wouldn't be a "well, we got NYSA from the list. With or without craptons of megas? Your pick." scenario, they'd be two different levels.

I think Athena-no-missiles and Athena-16-homers-and-8-smarts is, similarly, not the same level but in the same shell. If those were both popular, I'd want them both.

That's how I feel about Logic and Logic x4. Same shell, different level. I wouldn't want to be like "we got Logic from random. Are we playing x1 or x4?" and have to negotiate that. I'd want it to say one or the other.

I agree with Tom on this one.

Besides...pushing the button is what you do when negotiation fails. You shouldn't have to negotiate the X's afterwards.

I completely disagree with Logic X4 being in the core. It is a "spin-off" and niche of descent game play like mega-nysa and I personally don't think it should be considered normal Descent game play. After being retired for a season or so (being able to see from the outside in), I feel that the community is kinda pivoting away from what original descent was. There have been many changes (enhancements) to the game over the last couple of years that personally I feel don't belong. Yes the code improvements are great, but anything else to the game is part of the reason I can't seem to love it as much these days. Sorry about the negative words, but this is me being honest. -DKH