descentchampions.org

Ok -- we're delaying the new season for a week, which gives us time to do this properly. If we cut off the levels today, when the season was supposed to end (well, we're a few hours short, but I doubt much will change), here are the popularity measures. Given the prevalance of level mods, I've just gone ahead and combined all the xes and whatnot this time around.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I've organized the lists of levels on the right by those that make top 5 in all categories, then 10, then 15 and 20. Going by the historical rules, the levels that make top 10 are . . .

- Logic
- Ascend
- Crimson
- Flea
- Lurk
- Athena
- Mindtrix
- Vamped
- Fuzed

. . . none of which are controversial, since they're all already *in* the core. We've lost Black Rose and Take2. As Lotharbot pointed out to me, Wrath is probably eating the games that would normally happen in Take2.

Our marginal levels are Black Rose, which is in by three counts, and Wrath, which is in by two.

My personal inclination is to take the 9 that are clearly in as core and leave the other two. Black Rose is such a maybe . . . but I'm definitely not comfortable with Wrath getting rolled in a promo challege. But I would like to consider putting together some sort of extended core per Vainiac's discussion thread. The levels through the top 20 have some really good flavorful options. Maybe we can have an extended random level picker? Maybe you could roll on that list with the consent of both parties in a challenge?

My other inclination is to possibly discuss this decision more openly this time around, maybe have players discuss the marginal levels. I have a big problem with that approach in that it privileges forum participants over people who are playing, and games are the gold standard. But there was a desire for input, so perhaps it's a good idea.

I would say if there's a clear 10th, leave it in. Last time we had 2 actually tied, but this time it appears Black Rose comes out ahead. (This time, two categories wash each other out, one category they are tied in, and the 4th category Black Rose is ahead). Black Rose is not THAT out there in terms of weapon balance, only missing a 2nd spreadfire to be even in primaries.

As for whether Wrath should be included in the future, I would definitely consider that a level that is naturally x4 is already in core (Athena). Perhaps the combination of it being a natural x4 and the fact that it is relatively small in size gives you pause?

And yes, I would <3 an extended random list.

looking at Wrath and Black Rose:

In matches played, Wrath is +28% relative to the 10th place level; Black Rose is -24%.
In Unique players, Wrath -15%, Black Rose +3%
In Unique twicers, Wrath 0, Black Rose 0
In Unique pairs, Wrath -18%, Black Rose 0

If we just add up the percentages, Wrath is at -5% and Black Rose is at -21%. For reference, last season we kept Take2 (-11% total, 2/4 measures) and Fuzed (-16% total, 3/4 measures). Our next closest level was NYSA (-56%, 0/4 measures -- 11th and 12th in almost everything.) This suggests Wrath is at least as reasonable as Take2 was last season, while Black Rose is a little bigger of a stretch than Fuzed.

I'm reluctant to include either -- Wrath because of the high missile count, and Black Rose because it's so far behind in matches played (it's not like it's in 11th by 2 matches; it's 20 matches behind.)

wrath should not be excluded based on missile count,....as Athena is heavily loaded.

however....I'm comfortable with both of these levels being added to the 'extended' version

If there is no clear 10th then I'd leave it at 9. I'd definitely not be the one to complain about dropping blackrose. What would be the plan for the extended random level generator? The top 20 levels? Top 25? And would ugh be excluded because like blubird, its very type specific?

I see the point about not excluding Wrath because of Athena. The pedant in me wants to point out that straight Athena, at 16 homers, does not technically qualify for the trophy, but I mean . . . that's pedantery. As if 4 more homers would make a difference, right, particularly in a level that open? It's a valid point. If we can stand the missiles in Athena, we can stand the ones in Wrath. I've been saying we shouldn't consider Wrath without bringing up the 'can an x4 level be core' issue that came up a couple seasons ago, but it seems like less of a thing now that I've seen the level in play for a while. The missiles in Wrath spend a lot of time in the fan, unless you're aggressivea bout getting them out. In fact, the last game I had in Wrath didn't even feel very x4, it just felt . . . complete. There was an awful lot of primary play. Could just be my sensibilities are drifting.

I think we should treat Black Rose and Wrath as a set, since they have similar statistical support. Both in or both out. I can see arguments either way. It doesn't make a big difference -- how about we ask people for preferences?

My preference as an admin would be 'Both Out' because I'm concerned that Wrath is still a bit far off the beaten path for a serious test, and you can get some crazy skewed scores in there. And I feel that Black Rose is getting a bit long in tooth, and lagging 'games played' is the metric I worry most about. It indicates people not organically enjoying the level, and I hate to be the one to tell pilots to eat their vegetables.

On the other hand, my preference as a player is 'Both In' because yay, variety! Even if it includes Black Rose. And plus I'd like there to be something in the core that covers smart ratting if we lose Take2.

I like the idea of having an extended core set that goes down to the top 20, and includes levels we'd normally throw out of core. I love the list that fell out of the stats here -- Wrath, RIP, Take2, Forte, Black Rose, Ugh, Salute, Neptune, Nysa, IO. Dang. That's some heat right there. Like eight different flavors of it. I'd love to roll on that list in a normal game, and I'd love to have the option to agree to roll on it during a challenge. Morfod said something about levels like Io really being great tests of skill and . . . I dunno, will to survive? Something like that? I can certainly appreciate the sentiment. That list is mean, which is awesome.

I went ahead and updated the spreadsheet to reflect final stats for the season, and to see what we'd get if we ran the list down to 25. It's um . . . definitely 'end of the bell curve' sort of data. 11 matches played, 4 people playing a level twice . . . kind of stretching the concept of popularity.

Just the same, top 25 adds Skunked, Nocturnal, Blubird, Savage, and Barathrum. Getting kind of off in the weeds if you ask me. Not in favor, even for extended core. Not that there is anything wrong with those levels, and I myself love contests in Blubird . . . but I dunno, they just aren't . . . really amazing levels. I think the list is stronger without them, but you all can take a look.

Seems kinda silly to make Wrath core with Jedi retired though, right? Something like 75% of games in Wrath are played by him. Most of the others are played by the same 3-4 players. But I don't really get what "core" means anyway, apart from being on the random list.

PS. I'm hoping Jedi stays retired long enough for the missile orgy fad to completely die, tbh. It's degenerate.

I love it too much for that. It isn't for everyone, and it isn't the only game, but man. Tis a rush like nothing else. If it's too intense for you, that's your business . . . but I personally would be sad if I couldn't find opponents in the style.

The point about wrath being somewhat niche in its appeal is taken though. It's hardly just Jedi, but neither do I propose the level to folks that I don't think are into it or ready for it. Hence my concern about exceptional scores in promotion challenges. Is it a good, fair test? I'm unconfortable saying that it is.

I also kind of feel like it needs another season worth of play before we can call it broadly popular. It's too new to know what the staying power will be like.