Respawn locations

by **Drakona** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:01 pm

What is the problem you're trying to solve?

If it is spawn kills, it is indeed something no one really likes, but many solutions have been tried over the years and none have caught on. It's not that they can't be prevented -- it's just that everything we've tried has had side effects we didn't like. Two second invulnerabilities on spawn result in having to sometimes fight fully armed invulnerable opponents. Half second invulnerabilities don't prevent much more than spawning on top of bombs. Previews turn spawns into ambushes, which makes learning a level's spawn points a lot more important than it used to be and introduces invisible tactical elements, which I don't think anyone likes.

The current, random system surprises everyone upon spawn, resulting in -- as Lothar said -- the opportunity for misdirection. And plus, the quick-draw scenarios it creates require skills that aren't that different from the skills needed to succeed at the game in general, which is why -- whenever someone complains about spawn kills to a grizzled old veteran, they don't say, "Sorry, that sucks", they say "Learn to MOVE!"

There are lots of things we could try, I suppose. A lot of people have lofted suggestions. Maybe spawning could leave you invulnerable but unable to shoot. Maybe you could be briefly cloaked. And so on. The only one that had any sort of broad approval before trying it out was previews. As suggestions go, I can't say I particularly like this one. The fact that spawns vary in urgency is part of the fun, I think, and winning the quick draw as the one who just spawned is definitely one of the game's joys. I definitely don't think I'd enjoy having to fight my way back to where I died every time. I much prefer to spawn close, grab a gun while my opponent isn't sure where I am, and get out. When I spawn far away, I have to look around for secondaries or strategies I can use to get a weapon back, because my opponent will be hunting me, and will know I can't be well armed -- and after a few seconds, will also likely have a pretty good notion of where I am. It's a pretty big hill to climb. I don't mind playing that game sometimes, it's part of the game . . . but every time? No thanks.

But it's not really me you'd have to convince that your idea's a good one. It's the community, or at least, a few pilots. If enough people think they want to play with it, and enough other people don't hate it, we can try it on for size . . . but I'm with Jeds on that. Seems pretty unlikely. I think Spawn Previews had the best chance out of anything, and they didn't catch on, except in a few niche contexts.

Really, I don't see it as a big problem. Spawns are very rarely a true no-win scenario once you learn to PLAN QUICKLY and MOVE, and as no-win scenarios go, they happen a lot less often than perfectly timed smarts, sudden faceoffs you lose, undodgeable walls of shots, getting caught in a hall without a vulcan, etc. It sucks when it happens, but truly hopeless situations are rare, and minimizing and dealing with them is a specific instance of a general skill you need anyway.

Descent ain't chess. It's partly poker, too. There are elements of luck. Sometimes you have to play odds, sometimes you draw dead, sometimes you get lucky. Being tough about all that is part of the game.

by **Sirius** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:47 pm

by **Entropy** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:54 pm

Mostly, the issue I have is when people respawn very close to their spew. Maybe taking that out completely isn't the way to go, but how about a way to turn down the frequency of that? I just played AFP 3 games in a row and every game featured multiple instances of some kind of abuse, either to or by the person spawning. I played Lothar on Flea and spawned in the tunnel so many times he just started throwing smarts down there in case I spawned again, which I did.

I also greatly dislike the fact that in general, your opponent can spawn near their spew and quickly contest that area forcing a disengagement from both parties. Then they can swoop back and pick up their weapons fairly easily/safely. Then I die and spawn no where even close to my spew and in an area devoid of secondaries or weapons. How is that fair? Or what about situations where you kill them and they just immediately respawn right behind you IN their spew? Spawn on top of vulcan and immediately start shooting the guy in the back.

I'm all for "Learn to move" because that's a skill. There's interaction there and actual choices to be made. But when you are put into a disadvantageous position ONLY because they happened to spawn where they did... How does that add to the game?

by **roncli** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:38 pm

When you kill someone, there is risk that before you can collect the spew that they will spawn and be able to immediately engage. When you spawn after dying, there is risk that before you can move you'll be spotted and immediately killed.

It's part of the game, has been for twenty years. The question is how do you properly react to it? How do you deal with that element of surprise? How do you manage that risk? These are the questions you need to be asking, not what can be done to eliminate it.

I don't want to make it sound like you don't have a legitimate point. It is frustrating to go poof, spawn, and go poof again... or to get a hard-earned kill, only to get rekt by red lasers and concs out of nowhere. However, I am in Drakona's camp. It's too rare to make a significant impact on the outcome of a game, unless you're simply letting it get to you more than you should. It really comes down to managing yourself. Don't let it tilt you.

by **Jediluke** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:11 pm

How is it fair? It's fair simply because it can happen to either person in the game. Luck is part of this game...both good and bad...but this game is 98% skill...and I think the little bit of luck keeps things interesting.

Oh, btw...there is no rule that says you have to spawn immediately and end up taking a smart to the face from Lotharbot.

Don't always respawn instantly. Figuring out how to get your spew back is also part of the game.

I'd say leave this aspect of the game alone...and learn what your options are within the game to counter your opponents tactics concerning spawns.

by **Drakona** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:12 pm

by **LotharBot** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:23 pm

by **Drakona** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:26 pm

Yeah, you're vicious about spawn killing. Respect for that.

Ascend x4 as a whole is vicious about spawn killing. And smarts in people's faces. And sudden, brutal death in general.

I like it that way. :twisted:

by **bahamut** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:17 pm

by **Entropy** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:08 pm