descentchampions.org

So, with Mark392 holding both the Blind and Disorientation trophies, something has ocurred to me:

-If a top pilot is able to play for many of the trophies, it's possible a single pilot may end up with a lot of them. What do you think about limiting a pilot to a single trophy at a time?

The obvious questions is, what would happen if they already had a trophy and beat another pilot in a trophy match? I think it would simply not count as a successful defense of the trophy for the person holding it. If the winning pilot wanted to take over that trophy instead of their own, the correct trophy would be selected from the trophy dropdown box when reporting, and they would take that one and their current trophy would revert to unclaimed. More on this below.

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Related to the above, what could incentivize lower-ranked pilots playing custom games like blind, disorientation, or fusion? Since normally, they could only win these trophies when playing the top pilots if things continue as they are.

I propose that you show the smaller image of the trophy that is for the game type that they played (such as is shown if you're playing against the trophy holder currently), even if it wasn't actually for the trophy. This would require a separate drop-down box: see below.

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Combining these 2 ideas, my suggestion is that if a pilot plays a fusion match, they have a separate "game type" dropdown box when reporting it to indicate as such. But they only use the original "trophy" dropdown box, if the game was against a pilot holding that trophy, and they want to take ownership of it. This way, someone holding the Disorientation trophy could claim the Fusion trophy by selecting it from the "trophy" dropdown box, and Disorientation would revert to unclaimed. That would mix up the trophies a bit and a lower ranked pilot may be able to snag it when it is available. (Or, they could not enter anything in the "trophy" dropdown box, and just select Fusion in the "game type" dropdown box, if they want to keep their current trophy)

Anyone playing a fusion match would select Fusion from the "game type" dropdown box, just not the "trophy" dropdown box. The smaller trophy symbol would be shown next to the game, but they wouldn't get the big trophy on their pilot page unless they actually won the trophy, of course.

The exact same options would be listed in each menu, except for the defaults which would be "No trophy" for the trophy dropdown box, or "Normal game" for the game type dropdown box. You use the "trophy" drop-down only if it was a game for a trophy and you want to take ownership of that trophy (and if you have a different trophy, you will lose it if you select this, so it's optional). You use the "game type" drop-down anytime you play a match of one of the special types. This will incentivize playing these cool game types as there will be a way for it to be shown on the game results list :)

Well, let me talk a little bit about what the trophies are for, first. I've repeatedly gotten inquiries from people under the impression that the trophies are there to promote activity in a subgame. And while they certainly do that, that isn't what they're for. They're for recognizing excellence.

The idea isn't to promote fusion matches, or dogfighting, or ratting, or D2, because I think these are cool things that every pilot should try (though I do think that). It's to recognize that these are subgames people play, that some people are really good at independent of overall well-rounded excellence as a pilot. There's an overall champion, sure, but there have always been fusion champions and ratting champions and D2 gods, and these things deserve recognition as well.

The difference is subtle but important. The trophies are supposed to follow what the community is doing, what subgames people are finding relevant and interesting. I feel good about the fusion and dogfighting and ratting trophies because people play Ugh and Doghell all the time, even without a trophy on the line. People have picked Take2 and Ugh as home levels. These are active subgames. Pilots are interested in pursuing those skills, and a champion at those subgames is a champion of something we all find important. The blind and disorientation trophies, I'm not so sure about. The disorientation game has always had a small-but-passionate following, and we do see a few matches in Monkey Bars and Three Sisters (and I kind of count June Bug) happen without any trophy on the line. There's definitely a community there for that, even if it's not as widespread. The blind trophy is kind of special. There have always been pilots interested in quickly learning new levels. Flying blind isn't something you normally do, but it raises the stakes on something you do normally do -- quickly come up with creative ways to use a level. It had a long and passionate following on the UF and UDL ladders, so I think it's okay . . . but it's certainly marginal.

What I'm trying to say is that the trophies don't exist to promote my vision (or anyone else's vision) of what the game should be. They recognize excellence in subgames the community has already decided are interesting. The community leads, the ladder follows. If we had several dedicated shaker pilots, we'd have a shaker trophy; we don't, so we don't. If we have a season where a particular level or style is dominant, we'll have a trophy for it. If people stop playing certain subgames, trophies will be retired. That kind of thing.

So with that said, do I think it's a problem that the trophies all pretty much go to gold pilots? No, I think that's expected! They really are alternate championships. I think if a silver pilot could hold and defend one, that would be the really surprising thing.

Do I think we need to encourage pilots who can't realistically win the trophies to play those subgames? No, that's exactly backwards. They should be playing the subgames they're interested in. If you really want to be a dogfighting master, go find the current master and train with him, and build that skill for its own sake and the love of it. Sure, you may some day be the champion, but not until you can beat the current one.

Do I think it's a problem that one pilot can hold all the trophies? No, not really. I think that would be quite an achievement, actually, and would probably make a medal on the spot to recognize it if it happened.

Do I think we should flag matches in subgames? Well, it would improve my confidence that we have the right set of trophies if I saw people playing those subgames without trophies on the line. I can't really oppose it if people are interested, though I'm wary of anything that makes the match reporting more complicated. But I'm concerned that it'll overemphasize the particular trophy set we have now -- I want enthusiasm for subgames to emerge naturally, and recognizing some over others all the time might distort that. I want people to play GaussNMercs because they think it's interesting, not because they get extra recognition for it. If enough people do it enough that it becomes a "thing", then there will be extra recognition for it . . . but I want that to happen naturally. Play what you think is interesting. Play what you think makes you a better pilot.

That said, if these are active subgames, flagging matches would let me do stats. Like, say a pilot is 125% better by kill ratio, on average, in a fusion match than in a normal match -- maybe that should be worth something, even if it's a bronze pilot. I think that might very well be true of birddog, and it is cool. Being able to look that up would be cool. It would require flagging matches consistently, though, and I'm not totally confident that people would do that. Plus, we might have to flag past matches.

Overall, I can certainly understand the mindset that wants "something for silver". We do a lot of things just for silver and for bronze, because improvement and achievement among peers is really a cool thing and worth recognizing. But that's balanced against the fact that we're trying to pursue glory and reward excellence, and there just aren't any shortcuts along the path to being the One Fusion Master, and if you aren't him, you just plain aren't. I could be persuaded otherwise, but my instincts are to side with "glory" on this issue.

Want a trophy? It's the same as wanting the #1 spot, just in a subgame. Get better.

Yeah, I'm coming around on that. It would be pretty cool to be able to tag subgame matches, and keep stats and stuff on those.

And plus, I'd wanted players to have a way to nominate trophies, but maybe we should start with nominating subgames. That's simpler, and if the former really is just a recognition of the latter . . .

Yeah, I think you persuaded me.

Woot :) and that is a great point- you can add an item to the "game type" dropdown before adding a trophy. If people play it, you add a trophy!

If certain pilots never want to try subtype games they just ignore that dropdown forever and it defaults to normal :)

I would love this so much! Personally, I think there is no need to list it for past games, it could be a "from now on" feature whenever implemented. This is why some baseball stats only go back to whatever date they started tracking it, etc.

So stoked!!

Edit: Let me be the first to nominate a sub game, or rather second since you already mentioned it: a combined Mega/Shaker one. If tons of people play it, a trophy gets added. Easy!

did someone say Mega Nysa?

Someone just did! I had a feeling that might've been coming :)

Okay, there you go. You can tag them. It doesn't interact with the trophies at all at the moment, they're just . . . tags. But it shows up in your history, and I can use them for stats.

I put Megas/Shakers in there, and GaussNMercs too, out of sheer hopefulness. Though I'm not 100% convinced Megas and Shakers are really the same category. I mean, shaker games generally HAVE megas, but being good at dodging megas says nothing about how you'll do with shakers in the game. Oh well, we'll see.

I should integrate them with trophies ultimately. I don't think I will make an automated system for suggesting a new one. We can just use the forum.

Fantastic! So, if I were to, say, challenge you to a game of Lurk (against my better judgement!) we can now tag it with the "ratting" label, right?

I need a game soon, JediLuke and Lothar seem to have the market cornered on games with you! Lothar, makes sense, of course ;)

Thanks for implementing this so quickly, I'll make good use of it!!

Hehe, yeah. Sorry about yesterday -- I do really want to play you, it's just that I had a ton of people ask me all at once, and all people I wanted to play really badly. I mean, the current #1, my mentor, my rival/husband, and you all asked for matches at about the same time! That's tough. Next time I see you . . .

. . . Lurk. Or Take2.

No, seriously, we can play wherever.

Lurk IS pretty ratty. I have had a dogfight or two in there, but both pilots have to want to. I think that dogfight room may actually have more exits than it has walls! Take2 is even better^h^h^h^h^h^h worse. DKH levels just do not seem good places for forcing dogfights to happen. Which is fine with me.

Really had a good time in Doghell and (Untitled) with Mark yesterday, though. I'd love to get back into it.