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I can see how the similarities can show, in fact, some of the pieces in the level are DKH Inspired, but when you really think about it, making an 8-sided cylinder or a arch-gate does nothing to a map, but adding a back room does, saying that I copied a back room that shows up in DKH's maps is like saying seeing a tree in real life is copying another tree in Washington.

Beleive it or not, making another room next to a room is something thousands of mapmakers have done in the past, sure DKH does it a lot, but once again saying its his, is discrediting the map maker... I myself didn't primarily want to copy DKH's maps. I took some elements but made it very obvious it was something of my own depiction, the fan however is a different story

if you'd like the entire stream LIVE with no cuts than you can watch it... Its a little cringy but it clearly shows that i created the level in my own depiction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx87BuJPzlI&t=1921s

At these moments i feel glad i streamed it XD

what i meant by "Discrediting map making in general" was that calling a back room or a room in general DKH's thing really is throwing shade at map makers who have made these types of things without knowing or simply trying to make something simplistic but affective, something DKH excells in making it hard not to make something similar

I dunno, guys. Logic looks a lot like vamped to me.

Righto I'll give this another shot because it seems like I'm not getting through.

I'm not saying it's mostly a dkh map because there's a room in the back. I'm saying it's mostly a dkh map because there's a room in the back that has the exact same layout as the top level of the back room in logic, and connects to the analogous rooms in the exact same places as the top level of the back room of logic, and has a flythrough fan in the exact same place as the flythrough fan in logic.

There are plenty of good maps with rooms in the back, and dogrooms, and reactors. That's fine by me.

I don't care if you intentionally made a logic clone, or if you went to make an original map and ended up accidentally making a logic clone. The result is a map that uses the same elements that dkh uses in the exact same places that he uses them. It's not original. Don't expect me to start singing the praises of its originality.

Unless you're done deliberately misrepresenting my point so you can make fun of it, I'm done with this conversation.

from memory: I suspect Maestro is off. I don't think the elements are in the exact same place. If someone gives a shit more than I do...I'd like to see an overlay of the 2 rooms to prove the point either way.

also, I could personally give 2 shits about the originality of a level. What *I* want is something playable in a 1 v 1 manner that is a bit different from everything else without being completely different.

I think Intel is a 'simple' level but one that plays well for what it is.

It certainly has logic inspired aspects that is undeniable but to say it is 90% logic would be incorrect. Cronos is a closer copy of logic while still providing elements that make the play different and enjoyable.

While it is fun to pick on Code in general I will acknowledge that Intel is good level. Not something that will replace logic but a good level none-the-less.

Mythena. Literally a copy of Athena yet still different enough to provide a unique playing experience to the original.

Was someone declaring intel to be a masterpiece of originality?? Intel 2, sure.......duh.

Cronos started as a much smaller logic, in fact half it’s size map, with different textures, a few door fu doors and a dog room. it had two differing hallways that each had unique confrontations that lead to a choke point ramp or hidden fan/missile room with a floor escape into a center dog fighting room much like Logic. Those are some basic 1v1 elements that people use. I showed it to Jedi and he ran with it and it ended up being a bigger map for his style off missile play with the columns and the wall grate because he liked it and he would play people in it and it might be popular. His suggestions lead me to believe he would play it a lot. It looks pretty much like a logic type map and everyone knows it but people still play it.

It’s just another offering. I make a bunch, Code makes a bunch, Rethink, DKH, Blarget, Lee, Drakona and so many others have made a bunch. It’s fun and relaxing and just like with songwriting and creation in general, we all pull from the some inspiration that we may have seen before. It’s also how we learn. If the genre works and people like and play it then cool. We design styles like that. We grow as we create and anything can happen or repeat itself out of admiration.

Yeah Code can be annoying but he’s into map making and trying to find out what people like so they will play the map in a dcl. That’s what I do too. Rethink wants you to like his maps too, Wrath’s popularity probably made Drakona proud too. I made a few decent maps and hoped people would like them. Some pull from other maps because they are design elements that flow well together. Verse/chorus/bridge maps. People liked them and we play them a bunch.

My point is...We as creators know we are lifting good from other maps sometimes because there seems to be a market for that type, the limited texture combinations won’t let us get away from repetitive hallway or back room colors. We do try and put our spin on it and still make it intuitive and easy to fly. It’s how we get inspired to keep going until the originality happens. Some come out with elaborate designs and that’s awesome. If they get played a lot, even better. We need great maps that people want to play which means if there is a sketch of an idea anyone would like to share in a path to constructive map design or what you would like to fly in as a pilot then please share. We are here building the arenas in which to do battle. Inspire us and we will create it!

Code, you have no grounds to claim originality for Intel but like Jedi and Lothar have said, stick with playability. Try to respond directly to what has been said in previous posts rather than going off on a tangent and try not to overreach. Most people here have been playing Descent for over twenty years and have a great deal of experience to draw from so keep it simple and stick to what you know. Also, level making is infinitely more than just splicing one or two levels together to make a new one. Sure this has been the case with some levels as mentioned in previous posts, but it has the potential to be so much more if you just try.

Admittedly, this thread/topic should never have escalated to this point but seeing as we're here I'd like to talk some more about levels. No single level or style is ever going to appeal to everyones tastes as we all judge them differently and certain design aspects will appeal to some people more than others. Remaking or rehashing levels to make new ones can help to create new, relatively successful levels for us to play in (i.e. Cronos and Mythena). However, originality is highly significant in my opinion and it shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

Making levels for the sake of playability is all fair and well until the only ten levels we're left playing are Logic. Playability is reductive; its like conceding that creativity is dead and no one could possibly do anything better so why bother? Theres plenty of reasons to bother because theres a whole host of different ways to manipulate cubes to create effective levels with design aspects that differ from most levels and more significantly, the most 'popular' levels. There is so much potential for making some really interesting levels but all too often, people get complacent and settle for what they perceive to be popular. I'm not here to make a point about the core levels however, I strongly believe that most people on the DCL are unwilling to branch out beyond the most commonly played levels because they're either unwilling to train in a less popular level, afraid of getting stomped in a less popular level or have preconceptions on what makes for a good level based upon mostly playing a small pool of similar styled levels. As a result its no surprise to see that the most commonly levels played on the DCL are virtually all made by the same author and are of a very similar style.

I implore anyone who's interested in making levels to go out there and explore levels new and old, from anarchy to single player, both inside Descent and in a level editor to see how they're put together, to test out different rooms or experimental structures to see what works and most importantly, to make the levels they themselves want to make. Sure its an uphill struggle to garner interest and playtime for a new level, but you've got to have faith in your work and if you really believe its worth playing then its likely that others will too.

• DMDB: http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/index.php
• Pootermans: http://www.pooterman.com
• Sick One's Asylum: http://www.descent2.com/sickone/
• Sirian's Warpcore: http://sirian.warpcore.org/descent.html