Proposed Challenge Rules

[RiTides]

[Jediluke]

In other words she would not have to compile it for mac if 58.2 does what we need it to do in regards to homers and so forth.
A fork would still be made but it will be using 58.2 as the base so that we can implement the other aforementioned features we wish to add (or remove in some cases)

[Drakona]

It's a really tough call. I'm torn between wanting to be fair to LoNi_ and wanting to keep the version of the game we're playing stable enough for good competition. I really don't think it's fair to ask players to switch between retro- and non-, particularly in the sorts of high stakes situations where challenges come out.

Here's an alternative Lotharbot came up with -- see if this is better. Players who don't have access to Retro homers can issue challenges, and those challenges cannot be refused, but their opponents have the right to insist on a low- or no- homing weapon level (or just ban those weapons from a normal level -- so you can still use the randomizer).

I think I like that better, though I'm not sure I like any of the options we have. Kind of a question of the best way to get through a situation that is -- hopefully! -- temporary.

Re: mac -- I have the necessary hardware to build on a mac, but I haven't succeeded in getting a build working. I sank a couple days into it before giving up. My hope is that if they come out with another Rebirth version for mac, the tools will be updated so the mac build works 'out of the box' and I can use it. If not, I'll have to either figure it out myself (very time-consuming!) or . . . not support mac. So I'm kind of in 'wait and see' mode with respect to mac. Another option is to track down whoever's done the mac builds for rebirth historically and see if they can help me figure it out.

We will do a DCL version of Descent eventually. Whether it's more of a fork or more of a branch within Rebirth . . . I don't know yet. But I will say that I have 100x more interest in 'what the community plays' than in 'what the rebirth guys say is the current version.' I've been really hesitant to name Retrohomers as a standard version -- partly because it looks self-serving, it's my mod, and partly because there's a strong 58.1 crowd and I really need to do a retro build off of 58.1 -- but it does seem to be really widely played. And I don't think it's fair to have to switch between them, though I don't know . . . that might just be me.

[Jediluke]

So, opponent can choose a no homer or LH version.....but this does not take in to account the fact that the smart missiles track differently also (more aggressively) and the vulcan is twice as fast. So, for someone like me that plays retro homer version 99.99% of the time...I'd be forced to switch to broken 58.1 and have to suddenly switch my timing of when to dodge...while that might sound easy...it's certainly not. Or I'd have to train equally as hard in 58.1 to adapt to the timing all to accommodate 1 player...but that 1 player doesn't have to adapt to accommodate the other 37 players.

I don't mean to sound harsh but this is the reality of the situation. There is currently no perfect fix. LoNi_ it might be time to run Windows.. I'll even mail you a windows disk for free. Dual boot and problem is solved.

retro homer version addresses the majority of the broken weapons and puts them closer to original code....it IS the version of the game that the ladder should require. Drakona...it isn't self serving to require your own mod....it's actually a major benefit that it IS your mod because you can continue to improve it. It's nice not to simply be stuck with a version full of modifications by a non competitive Descent player that only plays co-op.

[RiTides]

[Drakona]

Yeah, challenges shouldn't be refused for any reason -- allowing that a little bit kind of eats away at the point of the system. For that reason, I like Lothar's "reasonable accomodation" approach better than the "you can refuse Loni" approach I stated earlier. Just a question of how to get it working right. (Yeah, that means I'm reversing myself, yeah I try not to do that too much. )

Yeah, smarts are an issue. I know I give up two or three dumb kills to smarts every time I play non-retro; they've been kind of an achilles heel since day 1 coming back for me! Note that I said challenged players [we need a term for this that doesn't sound so . . . PC] have the right to insist on no homing weapons, so smarts (and notionally megas) would be included.

That cuts out a pretty big piece of the game, which is kind of unfair to Loni_ in a different way. But I really am still inclined to go with competitive stability over fairness to macs. And perhaps it is a right that won't always be exercised.

While we're on the topic of standard versions, I really don't know what the situation is in D2. I know some people have adopted the retro versions as their single player game full time, but I don't know what people are doing in multi. I've never been asked to play D2 retro (whereas in D1, people ask before launching NON-retro!), so I don't know what the community norm is there, but I suspect it's not retro. Of course, the relevant community is 1v1 D2 players, which is like . . . Jinx and Loni. So Loni's half of it right there. [This is only relevant to the challenge system because we ARE going to have a D2 trophy. ]

It is a near-certainty that I'll make a D1 version geared toward competitive play sometime in the near future. I'll do my darndest to support macs, but I can't promise I'll succeed (or that I'll still have the hardware to support macs 5 years down the road). That's a drawback, for sure, but simply following core Rebirth has its own set of drawbacks, too, as those who've done that for the last few years will tell you!

I wouldn't start it as a ladder version -- some of the things I want to do, like improving net code, would benefit both DCL and Rangers. And it couldn't be an official DCL version until this community had widely adopted it on their own anyway -- as you see has been my approach with retro. And if it's any comfort, I'd still rather do it as contributions to core Rebirth or as a branch in that project than a full fork, but I'm not sure that approach would give me the freedom to be really responsive to the competitive community. If it took three weeks of strenuous arguing to get the homer mod into Rebirth, I can only imagine what would happen if I tried to make large scale changes to net code.

[Jediluke]

A whole lot of excuses for refusing challenges???
There is only 1 acceptable excuse. The person issuing the challenge does not have homer mod.

How many people does that effect? Only 1 has been named so far? 1 out of 38. If players lead...then they are leading. homer mod makes up the majority of matches played.

But you propose that 1 player be allowed to force others to play a non homer mod version and he himself never play the homer mod. So, he can play matches that have no homers or broken homers and faster smarts and faster vulcan. He himself isn't forced to learn two completely different timings of the game. Advantage LoNi_.

Or he could install windows (for free) and play homer mod.

IF this ladder switched to a version that ONLY worked on a mac...guess what I would have to do? Quit or get a mac. I'd buy a mac.

I've been a joystick player my whole life. Joystick doesn't work worth a damn in rebirth so I had to switch to mouse to be able to play. My choice. I could have quit or I could pursue perfecting a new controller.

[RiTides]

[Jediluke]

Yeah, dealing with LoNi_'s connection is difficult in and of itself and now we add to the mix that we must play a different version of the game that reacts completely different in multiple areas.

In case you haven't noticed, I like homers. Removing them is not a happy work around...it changes the game. Dodging a smart in non homer mod versions is a totally different affair that requires different timing and strategies all together.

Ok. So, I now must give an additional advantage to LoNi_ on top of the connection issue. I must train in non homer version equally in order to adjust to the severe differences so as to accommodate 1 single player.

What's the issue with installing a free copy of windows? I don't want LoNi_ excluded. I want him to play the fairest version of the game. The least broken one. Homer mod... and I'm offering a free copy of Windows to help accommodate the infintesimal minority that can't play it currently.

[RiTides]