Core Level List Update

by **Jediluke** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:37 am

Core levels aren't about what Descent used to be. If that were the case we would have all spaz levels in there.

This is a list of levels that are currently being played the most and that are not one dimensional (aka: having only 1 weapon like UGH)

If a newbie looks at the core levels he can reasonably expect to be asked for matches in those levels...thus he better learn how to play them well.

by **Mark392** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:37 am

A note that really doesn't support one side or another specifically: there are many levels that "play like other levels" however, the reason they are not those levels is the individual design. A single pilot'a style can change how a level plays and feels for two players--combatting a camper, using Proxies every time you get them--Logic plays and feels like Vamped at times (this is what I hear, feels completely different to me!) Logic is not vamped though. Feeling like a different level is different from being a different level.

This fact can be used to support either side, honestly...

by **Jediluke** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:41 am

Keep this in mind: These levels are being voted on all season by everyone on the DCL. If you think there are other levels that should make the list....then play DCL matches in them and convince others to do so as well.

by **LotharBot** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:02 am

Counterpoint:

There's a trophy for fusion, and we keep ugh off the core list. Now there's a trophy for x4. Seems like we shouldn't wedge something into the core list even if it's popular, if it's also an acknowledged subgame. You can challenge someone to Logic x4 if they hold the trophy, but not if they're just an ordinary player. ("But people play it! People talk about wanting to get better at it!" Yeah, and people also play Ugh, and talk about needing to get better with fusion, and people play D2 and talk about needing to get better at D2. Those are still non-core subgames.)

Related:

I think the comment that x4 and other enhancements "don't belong" is misguided. As long as there has been Descent, there have been people adding or subtracting weapons from levels using the editors, and there has been powerup duplication through mechanisms like Kali Fastjoin. If x4 doesn't belong, then neither does Athena NH, Mega-NYSA, every Kali open game ever, or Vamped NYDP. We've also had a history of gameplay enhancements like d1x adding weapon autoselect order, the ability to restrict available powerups in a level, ping monitors, framerate caps, etc. And in particular, those "enhancements" that affect level balance are totally subject to agreement by the players -- if you want to play Logic with the weapons exactly as-is, ask for it. There's no reason to be bothered by the fact that other people sometimes play in variants you don't like.

by **Jediluke** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:34 am

People have played core levels and marked them for subcategory trophies such as dogfighting for example.

by **Drakona** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:55 am

Missile loadouts have responded to the tactical sophistication of the community, and the available hardware.

In the DescentR / Minerva era, in which everyone was running at 20 FPS, homers were described as "slightly more accurate concs", and having 20 of them in a level was perfectly reasonable and balanced and people liked it and Minerva became popular.

In the D1x era, when people were trying to run 60 FPS for control, homers were brutal, and they behaved differently for different pilots depending on framerate. They were unfair, unbalanced, hated, limited, and unpopular. LH and NH levels proliferated. Black rose with its single homer and four smarts became popular. Vamped NYDP, changing a 2/2 loadout to 0/2 + fusion is a change very much in line with what was popular in the era in which missiles were broken. We focused heavily on primaries. That era gave us Ugh.

In the Rebirth era, homers were fair but almost inescapable, and while we didn't want to abandon them completely, popular levels had very low homer loadouts. 0-2. The same era saw a rise in the use of smart missiles compared to the Ugh era, but still something a Black Rose pilot would recognize. They weren't awesome, but at least they were no longer broken.

In the Retro era, homers and smarts are fair for all players, more consistent and predictable than they've been since D1's release, you can dodge 25 FPS homers while controlling a 200 FPS ship, and locking them at 25 means they're weaker than they've been since the Minerva era. The result has been the rise of ninja dodging, and the community's general embrace of missiles as a solid part of the games. Levels built in the Retro era are starting to have more homers in the base level again, 5 or 6 or more. Pilots are willing to play serious games with 16. Pilots are starting to play games in which smart missiles are practically primaries.

I consider this trend a very good thing: the fact that we can do these things and enjoy them is something I consider a success in terms of having the best version of the game. Even if certain pilots do sometimes complain about the modern homers being weak. They aren't if you fire them right, and that's the joy of it.

The trend toward playing with more missiles began before X4 even existed, before Retro 1.3 came out. I built Doghell MH as I started to have interest in the emerging game, and believe me -- previous era, I was a very, very NH pilot.

The use of X4 in the modern game wasn't something I foresaw or intended. In fact, I almost didn't put the feature in. I put the primary duplication in for anarchy, to let people play levels that had been balanced for Kali fastjoin. I was asked to put secondary duplication in as well and said, "Come on, who's ever going to use that?" Nobody wanted *more* missiles, not that I could see, the complaint was always that they wanted to play old levels, but they had too many missiles in them, which is what the Mcaps are for. I put in the secondary duplication specifically because someone said, "I want to use that because fastjoin mattered in shaker games", a point I couldn't deny. I put it in thinking it would be used once in a blue moon in anarchy games, and never on the ladder.

The trend toward more missiles was there, but I didn't see it, and I certainly didn't anticipate how far it would go. I didn't even understand that game until months later. (Though now I'm a fan -- Ascend x4 may not be the most serious and completest level to play, but it is an extremely good one and a huge amount of fun).

Logic x4, Ascend x4, Mindtrix x4 -- this is something new. This is this era's ugh, it's what we can do with the technology we have, something a lot of people in the community (though certainly not everyone) have decided is interesting.

I dunno what to tell you. Descent evolves. I didn't send it in the x4 direction on purpose, I didn't even see that coming. Even if I'm a fan of where it ended up, I swear I didn't do it on purpose. And I think it would have wound up there without my intervention, anyway, though maybe slower and not as good.

Being out of the game for most of a year, you don't recognize pieces of it coming back. That would've been true in 2000, as well. That would've been true in 1997. That's true now in other ways, too. Some of the old school pilots coming back, I show them Flea, I show them Logic, I try to tell them about this hyper-fast blended dog-rat-deception game we all play these days, and why we need tiny boxes full of missiles (I mean, like, compared to Vamped) just to stand a chance of hitting each other on a regular basis. And it's alien to them. Of course it is. But it's what we have now and I think it's awesome, and they often come around.

Anyway. I appreciate the honesty DK, and I hate to think I've let you down. The criticism is always welcome. But I do think where we are is not that weird.

Does that make X4 levels core, though?

Yeah . . . maybe not. I'm hearing a lot of, "ehh, I guess that's okay" punctuated by the occasional "aw HELL naw". There's not a lot of resounding yesses, even from people who like the game. So that probably means no.

Didn't even get a solid yes from me, to be honest. I saw it in the stats and thought, "No . . . really? . . . well who am I to say the community can't choose to play that." Which is what I said to the admins, "I don't think we can make this call, we need to ask the community."

Sounds like no, though. The "it can't be core if it's also a trophy" idea sounds like a really solid rule, too. We've blocked Ugh in the past. There's a fusion trophy. We've blocked June Bug in the past. There's a rat trophy. I have played core levels for trophies, but they don't force subgames. That's probably a pattern.

by **Jediluke** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:22 am

Logic x4 isn't a subgame. It would be if you took out primaries. The majority of kills are done by primaries that the secondaries forced you to fly in to.

by **LotharBot** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:23 am

that doesn't make it not a subgame.

by **Jediluke** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:44 am

Then athena and Nysa are sub games?

by **melvin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:06 am

Solid no from me and i like x4... a lot. x4 is niche-est of the niche, fun but not something i would ever make someone play. I mean, you said it yourself Drak. This is this era's ugh and ugh was excluded. All this having been said, get ready for "Melvin's Annoying June Bug for Core Campaign" of Spring 2015" aka MAJ-BUCCS 2015 aka the world tour. It's happening! (Assuming, you know, that i have any time to play)