Core Levels for Next Season

[Jediluke]

degenerate? expound please.

[Jediluke]

but my 2 cents....wrath is not core....not yet.

[roncli]

To be fair, you're never forced to play an x4.

Someone once told Athena had 20 homers. Drak's right, it's 16. Fact checking!

[Drakona]

I count them. As in, "I have 10, he can only have 6". Definitely feel being on the 6 or the 10 side of that equation.

[Jediluke]

some people think that x4 means...hold down the right click and fire as many missiles as you can...rinse and repeat.

Those people lose to me by single digits. It IS boring when you don't understand how the train just wrecked you and suddenly it's over 20-4. If x4 was more about luck...then surely I would get unlucky more often than I do.

The thing is that x4 requires a heightened sense of awareness and reaction. Placement of your shots, placement of theirs...placement of your ship...and do all this with absolutely no time to think about it. Play amazingly every second of the game until it's over cuz you're forced to.

That's x4. I'd never describe it as boring. It's the most action packed way to play imo.

[LotharBot]

I think there's a certain perception among a subgroup of pilots that the pinnacle of Descent is pure primaries-only dogfighting. Along with this is the perception that running is lame and missiles (other than concs) are also lame (or degenerate or whatever), and the best and Descentiest pilot is the one who can pocket-dodge a stream of primaries the best while simultaneously hitting their opponent with primaries. I think this view of Descent is a myopic view from 1998, which fails to recognize that the game evolved and expanded to a higher-skill game and that high missile loadouts are one of the results of that higher skill level.

Dodging ability is at the point where pilots can survive for an absurd amount of time in scenarios that would have been considered for-sure kills in the past, so smaller arenas (like blubird) or heavier missile loadouts (like wrath) have evolved in order to keep up with those skills and keep the game at a pace that challenges the best pilots. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you think you're a "good dogfighter" because you can pocket-dodge plasma in a big space but you can't survive a close-quarters fight by pocket-dodging smart missiles coming from multiple sides while also dodging plasma, you're only a "good single-stream dogfighter" with an incomplete game. If you like the slow and deliberate pace of AthenaNM but can't handle the high pace of Wrath or AscendX4, you're missing skills.

Homing things are no longer OP or broken (not even d1x-era broken; Retro locks them to original reasonble-framerate behavior) -- they're now a legitimate, fair (equal difficulty for pilots on different hardware), skill-requiring element both to use and to dodge. It's not like boating in D3-skybox where developing that one skill leads to atrophy in the rest of your game; developing the skill to play in a high-missile arena requires you to develop a complete game. To use a specific example: Jediluke loves x4, but also has a 51-0 lifetime record in Crimson, 61-1 in Vamped (one loss to DKH), 19-0 in Neptune, and 26-3 in Fuzed (those losses coming to Bahamut, LoNi, and Mark392.) It's not like he suddenly becomes a pushover in a low-missile or dogfight-heavy level, in the way that some pilots become pushovers in high-missile levels.

There are some pilots who have excellent missile-placement and missile-avoidance tactics, some who excel with fusion, some who are excellent dogfighters, some who enjoy deception, some who enjoy disorientation, some who love power weapons, and so on. Those are all valid skills worth acknowledging and celebrating. Every one of those skills has direct application to ordinary levels like Logic, Fuzed, Athena, and Crimson, and if you want to be a good pilot you need to learn to contend with those skills, not necessarily by embracing the subgames but at least by understanding the skills and learning to cope. If you can win in a primaries-only dogfight but you can't figure out how to get someone out of the tunnels or cut them off when they run, or you rock with one gun but are out of your depth with others, or you can dodge shakers but have no idea how to use lasers, you've just learned a little corner of Descent and you will get no sympathy from me when someone schools you in the vastness of knowledge you haven't learned.

Lest you think I'm defending my favored game type: I've only played 16 matches that would qualify for X4, or under 1.9% of my total. I also don't play a lot of fusion-only (12 games, 1.4%). But I recognize and acknowledge the skills involved, and I see how pilots who have developed those subgame skills have become more dangerous all-around pilots. And I can't help but be disappointed by those who only see one limited form of Descent as "skillful" and aren't willing to humbly acknowledge the skills others have.

[Mark392]

TBH when it comes to the two on the line levels, I am fine with Blackrose (greatly dislike the level because I can't see. anything. at all.), and iffy on Wrath. If Forte were in the same situation as Wrath, who would be saying what and for what reasons, right now? I'll not discard Wrath out of hand, but in the same hand, if Forte were in the same position, what would we all think? I don't agree or disagree on wrath based off any other level's design or counts--Athena has 16 homers, but it has the size it needs to allow for tactics needed for a balanced game. But, I suppose my philosophy on Descent is what guides my level desires and what I believe to be "core Descent".

Now, I will not expand on this greatly, but just a small outline on my Descent philosophy. Small preface: We all know where I stand on missiles, however, Jediluke is correct on the X sub-game. It takes insane amounts of talent, concentration, and hard work/practice to succeed in an X environment. Where we may differ is that I also believe it takes equal, albeit different, skill to succeed in Fusion only games, dogfighting levels with a lot or no weapons, or levels with great amounts of one type of weapon over the other (Every other type of game). What X games have over Ugh games is speed and precision. I could list areas of each game type and style, and X games are not limited to just speed and precision mind you, but those are the most needed. However, a year long chess game takes just as much skill, albeit different, as a speed chess game with a 5 second move timer. Some people prefer to micro-move every little piece before firing a single shot, so Ugh it up!

So, my philosophy (short version)? Well, I don't want to be lumped into a group that labels "primaries only" is the core of Descent--and I don't really think there are many out there that believe that specific moniker, though I could be wrong. No, I believe that the core of Descent lies with the labeling of it's weapons. Primaries and Secondary's. I used to believe that this meant for a 1 v 1, for it to be true to core Descent, needed a set of each type of primary, and at least one smart and one homing missile (Preferably 2 homing missiles and 1 smart missile). Over the years, however, that philosophy has morphed and changed into something slightly different. To sum the difference up, it basically is this: to each level there is a balance that can be achieved that does not favor one specific class of weapon over the other aside from core ideal (primaries are primary, and secondary's are secondary), and does not favor only ONE style dependent on weapons--but allows for, and possibly requires, multiple styles dependent on opponent and situation. To keep the thought simple and text-friendly (I'd love to have an open voice discussion where I can actually verbalize my philosophy) I would say if I have the opportunity to fire a secondary almost as readily as I do a primary, that isn't a core (Ability to eliminate half of a room the size of Athena's dogfighting room with all smart missile blobs, for example). Or, if I don't have the option to fire a secondary strategically (one or two homing missiles)--after being careful to collect them and not throw them out for searching/data gathering purposes or waste it in a split second bad shot (excited secondary finger--which I get from playing X's...Lol)--and use that homing item to eliminate a precise area for my opponent to be in, or heard them into my firing, or force them to make an ultimate awesome move to get away from the missile AND my primary fire, that's not core either. Now, that is why you might fight me in Logic and see that many of the missiles are not spawning, because I tend to keep ahold of them, or use them as a secondary item. This is not to say that X levels don't allow the item to be used secondarily and cause someone to be damaged by your primary weapons, however, being able to effectively eliminate half of an Athena sized room in a 1 cube tall, 3 cube wide, by 4 cube deep room is a little overboard IMO--even if you end up killing the enemy with your primary. Gathering info? We used to shoot lasers down a hallway to gather information or predict someone coming, we now have the option to fire smart missiles very readily for this purpose, and must choose between the two. (I could speak on the differences and the space between for hours... No one wants that...)

Now, one may say "but such and such a level lends itself to Vulcan so much" and they could be right. Yes, Vulcan could be overused and leaned toward in a level, but that is why I believe IO and, yes, "W Level" could be core with one Vulcan--the level itself balances well with one Vulcan creating the values of variance to counter the individual with that weapon (Needed tactics to kill a Vulcan user with laser 4s). If there is only one Vulcan, there are many ways to counter that--however, that is where the great amount of skill and strategy is required of a year long chess game. I am willing to play someone for 45 minutes in IO, where 13 games of Pillbox X4 could have been completed I the same amount of time with MUCH more ACTION... And that is what it seems feeds the preference: action, or action +++++++.

Edit: This all is not to say that I don't enjoy off-core items. I love the game all over the place (I enjoy some styles and pieces more and less than others, just like everybody else!).

[Entropy]

[Mark392]

Oh... My. lolz. That's all you got from my whole speech...? Sadness...

[Jediluke]

Mark, I don't differ from you in the way that you expressed. I agree that x4 is a subset much like fusion only. I think that wrath is not core but also think that io is not core. To me, core is simply neutral ground for the fairest fight possible.
Don't get me wrong I totally get the value of learning to deal with someone when there is only one Vulcan....and io is an excellent example as is Junior w/Vulcan. Despite popular belief I am good at non X games including fusion only. I take pride in being good at everything (except 4d/disorientation and FRP)... Though I recognize the great skill involved to be great at those subgames.

So, if core is about neutral ground fair fight...then io is not it. Wrath x4 is not it, ugh is not it and Forte is not it. Imo

I understand your argument for io and agree with the lesson io teaches but according to my 2 cents on the definition of core... It doesn't qualify.