Question about Logic

[roncli]

Wait, which part of AoD is NYSA-like? o_O

[birdseye]

[Drakona]

What makes Logic such an enduring favorite for me is that all styles work, and all weapons work. The spaces are a good size such that both lasers and vulcan are viable, contrasted with larger levels like Vamped or Athena that emphasize vulcan, or a smaller space like Ascend that emphasizes lasers. The loops are a good size too, such that you can both bring a pressure game and avoid one. Contrast with Ascend where I can always make you fight, or Vamped where nobody has to fight when they don't want to. It's just . . . a really nice middle ground where everything works. It's even got a serious missile game without it being *about* missiles.

I'd like the same level, but about 15% smaller and faster.

[roncli]

Just played it tonight, and remembered what I liked about it... it's one of the few levels I don't ever feel trapped in. Even when you're in the back room, you have so many options to get out of it, it feels... well, not safe... less dangerous?... than other maps.

Also, best Logic game I ever played was at the Denver LAN and Ashes in the closet, with the proxies. He was an SOB in there, but he was GOOD at it.

[roncli]

Fair enough on the NYSA part... there's actually a second place that kinda feels like it, but the slopes themselves didn't evoke a NYSA feeling until you mentioned it.

DKH, I was always curious... what have the original authors of these levels... Aglaea, Vamped, etc... have to say about these remixes? Back in the D3 days, those kind of "lifts" didn't go over so well.

[DKH]

[LotharBot]

my understanding was that old-school level designers didn't generally get upset about maps that were "inspired by" others. What bothered them was attempts to carry their maps directly over into other games (like, making a D3 or a Miner Wars port of their D2 map, which was designed based on D2 ship and weapon speeds, and therefore sucked in the other game) or basically copying chunks of their maps and gluing them to other pieces that weren't necessarily thoughtfully connected. But if you were like "hmm, I really like Vamped, so I made this map using similar elements" people were like "hey cool, nice map, I like how this segment is similar to Vamped but this other segment has a different flow". Nobody likes a bad cover of a song, but everyone likes a good song that alludes to another one cleverly.

[LotharBot]

Now, regarding what I like about Logic:

it's a level in which any playing style is viable, and any weapon choice is viable -- but only if you're able to impose your will on your opponent. If you're a great dogfighter, you can't necessarily get away with camping the dog room, and if you're really good with door-based trickery you can't necessarily get away with just hanging out inside the doors, because your opponent can basically just stay away and/or spam shots in your area from a distance if that's all you do. But you can push your opponent into playing to your strengths by a combination of aggression and patience, making them uncomfortable with where they are, getting them to move around, and then seizing the opportunity when they respond by putting themselves in a position where you are strong. But if you're too aggressive or too patient, your opponent can seize on your weaknesses and put themselves in an advantageous position. Playing in Logic and consistently doing well requires a totally complete game -- if you have a weakness, somebody will expose it in a way that it might never be exposed in, say, Vamped or Ascend or Neptune. If you're a one-note player, even if you're pretty good at that one note, eventually a better-rounded player will figure out how to counter you and rip off a strong second half showing. Because you can be "strong" just about anywhere in Logic, and someone who is only strong in one or two places will eventually find themselves under siege by someone who is strong everywhere.

I think melvin, morfod, and wats all pointed out specific ways in which this is true -- the size of different spaces, the number and relative location of connecting doors and tunnels, the size of various columns. Even the multi-angled nature of the ramp near the exit door is well thought out, and allows for strong play from either end.

[Drakona]

[Lee]