Any update on L17 core / extended core changes?

[Leto_II]

Basically the question above. Just curious on the status of this.

[roncli]

Still in discussion. Don't expect major changes in core, though there might be some different things in extended.

[Leto_II]

Is this an admin-only discussion? It would be cool to see the stats at play here.

[bahamut]

^

[LotharBot]

stats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

CORE: Logic, Ascend, Mindtrix, Audacity, Flea, Salute, Crimson, Lurk

EXTENDED: [CORE LIST], Rie2mann, Athena, Fuzed, Ugh, Neptune, Wrath, Killbox, Black Rose, RIP, Forte, Tetrafusion, Purple, Take2, Blubird, Droids

why Athena/Fuzed are extended: if you look at the "levels by matchup" ( http://descentchampions.org/ladder_stats.php?season=10 ) Fuzed shows up only in silver-v-silver, and Athena never shows up. Essentially, these aren't go-to levels for a lot of people on the ladder, but instead are "I guess I'll settle for that" levels. You can partly see that in the big gap between Fuzed/Athena and Lurk in the "matches played" column of the spreadsheet. Marginal levels only get in if there's a really good case for their inclusion, but for both of these there's a strong case for excluding them.

why Rie2mann is extended: Of 77 matches, LetoII has been in 71 of them. It hasn't really caught on for other pilots, and as such, it wouldn't make sense to show up on a random roll in a gold promo challenge (it hasn't been played gold-v-gold this season) or silver (6 total silver-v-silver matches). The point of core is that it's common levels you can expect to be challenged in by a wide variety of pilots, not just one or two. (One stat that's helpful: compare "unique pairs" to "unique players". A level that has a wide following will have around 2-3x as many unique pairs, and that's true for every core level. A level with a narrow following will have almost the same number of unique players as pairs, because it's basically one or two people asking for games there. Tetrafusion, Forte, Killbox, Wrath, and Rie2mann are all right around the 1x mark -- extended core, not core.)

[Leto_II]

Lothar, thank you very much for this. It's always interesting to look at these stats, and I think we all appreciate the transparency.

So, even though the "unique pairs" stat for Rie2mann was high enough to possibly warrant core, it came down to a judgement call regarding this comparison of "unique pairs" to "unique players?" It did significantly better than the other two levels in the "marginal" list, yet it was determined that all three should be excluded. What would it have hurt to have included any of these - or all three?

I will be blunt about one thing: Core is a small, stagnant, limited (and self-perpetuating, given random rolls and promo matches) list. Yes, allowing core to change even more than just a little would defeat its purpose, but the way this is handled, it seems like it's set not to change at all. DKH makes great levels, but he has a distinct style, and many pilots think that this is a narrow slice of what is competitively viable, balanced, and interesting. How are other level designers even able to compete with the self-perpetuating nature of core?

[Morfod]

[LotharBot]

[Drakona]

Core is not that self-perpetuating! It changes slowly, depending on what people find interesting and what they enjoy playing. It actually changes about as fast as I would expect, given that the life of a good, solid competitive level in the Descent world seems to be about five years. The Minervas, Nysas, Athenas, and Vampeds of the world have a period of domination, and then the game moves past them. If it's about five years, I would expect to see a list of ten levels change by two or three every year -- and that is in fact what we do see.

Here are all the core level lists we've had over the history of the ladder (you can fish them out of new season announcements in the news forum to see the discussion in each case!).

S1: Logic, Fuzed, Black Rose, Neptune, Nysa, Vamped NYDP, Athena LH, Flea
S2: Logic, Fuzed, Black Rose, Neptune, Nysa, Vamped, Athena, Take2, Nocturnal, Lurk
S3: Logic, Fuzed, Black Rose, Neptune, Nysa, Vamped, Athena, Take2, Ascend, Lurk
S4: Logic, Fuzed, Nysa, Vamped, Athena, Take2, Ascend, Flea, Lurk
S5: Logic, Fuzed, Vamped, Athena, Take2, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Black Rose, Mindtrix
S6: Logic, Fuzed, Vamped, Athena, Take2, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Black Rose, Mindtrix, Crimson
S7: Logic, Fuzed, Vamped, Athena, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Mindtrix, Crimson
S8: Logic, Fuzed, Vamped, Athena, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Mindtrix, Crimson, Salute
S9: Logic, Vamped, Athena, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Mindtrix, Crimson, Salute, Audacity
S10: Logic, Athena, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Mindtrix, Crimson, Salute, Audacity

Which brings us to the proposed
S11: Logic, Ascend, Flea, Lurk, Mindtrix, Crimson, Salute, Audacity

Only two levels in common between S1 and S11, a change of six levels over three years. That's almost exactly the pace I'd expect to see.

Anyway. The proposed new core list is the same as last season except for having lost Athena. And yeah -- the ladder has been getting DKHier over time. This would mark our first season with an entirely DKH core list. It's pretty impossible to put this down to any sort of conspiracy, though -- these are the levels that are broadly played! DKH was a prolific and talented level author, and the game has been competitively evolving and we have not since seen his like.

We've had some close calls. Wrath looked like it might make it one season. I was kind of rooting for droids. And you're right that there is some judgement involved in the process! It's critical that these levels all be . . . well, "serious". The whole game needs to work, and they need to have the respect of a broad portion of the ladder, and even people who do not *like* them should agree that being good at the modern game means being good at that particular level. These things are mainly supposed to be used for challenges of one sort or another, so they should all feel like fair contests.

Core is not supposed to be new and exciting. It's supposed to be old, it's supposed to be what we all know and enjoy and agree on, more or less -- and the best way I know to measure that is by what people play.

New levels can and do break in, but it's supposed to be the result of a wide swath of people playing them voluntarily. One pilot, no matter how prolific, is not supposed to be able to move the needle, and if they can -- well, the stats have failed, and judgement takes over. We're looking for broadly popular levels.

It's not supposed to just be a closed door discussion. My fault on that -- I haven't been around and playing, and I wanted the staff's read before doing the public thread because the situation with Rie2mann hadn't come up before. I can only go from statistics, and I wanted to make sure what I was seeing "It's a level Leto really likes, but which is not otherwise popular" accurately reflected the situation on the ground.

If you want to change what is in core, the best thing you can do is convince people of the merits of another level to the degree that they play it on their own, when you're not around. But making a new popular level is a very difficult thing. Even the masters, the DKHes, Nirvanas, Sirians, and Spazzes of history, were often surprised by what became hugely popular. IIRC, Spaz did not regard Minerva to be anything like a masterpiece, and Sirian despised Ugh. I played Logic the day it was released, and while I liked it, I had no idea it would come to rule the world the way it has. That DK's levels have come to dominate organically is a testament to his skill and dedication as a designer . . . and also a testament to the fact that no one since has fed the community. We desperately need someone to, to be honest, the game needs to keep evolving and improving. I took a shot and may take others, and I kinda hope Rethink breaks through with something. In the mean time, keep improving and keep making awesome things. I am sure many people are hungry for new ways to compete, but well -- displacing the masters is hard. It took DK's levels 3 years.

But this is the DCL way: you don't prove your skill on the forum, you prove it in the mines. We have core so that we don't argue about what "counts" -- we have a set so we can settle things in the mines. That is the ultimate way. Winning, not whining. Dominance in level selection is the same way. A level which is broadly popular, which isn't somehow inappropriate for challenges (the whole game needs to work), will be core. But there are no forum prizes and no ways to politic yourself to victory. It has to be something people enjoy enough to choose to play over and over.

Rie2mann is, at best, in the position wrath was in a season or two ago: Lots of people sorta liked it, but the popularity was really driven by a small crowd, and it was marginal. The judgement was -- wait a season and see -- and we waited a season and it didn't persist. So we made the right call. It was never core.

[Leto_II]

Thank you for your responses on this. Yes, I think a lot of pilots would have appreciated more transparency. This really was behind closed doors, and I think everyone would have liked to be part of the discussion.

There is a general sentiment among many active pilots that core really is but a narrow (and frankly, boring) slice. No, it's not supposed to be "new and exciting." I didn't make Rie2mann to be "new and exciting," I'm not one for gimmicks. I was going for something more subtle, something that I found - and I feel as though many other pilots find - interesting. No one would agree to play the map with me if they didn't like it. These four metrics reflected this, yet your "judgement call" threw it out.

Seems a pretty tall order to compete with this status quo. This happens in many, many gaming communities. People play the same old maps, and then become bored of them. But what do they do? They continue to play the same old maps, because it's familiar. Add in an institutionalized system for maintaining the status quo, and nothing will ever change - and will in fact settle into boring, stagnant equilibrium.

Vainiac's suggestion of "moving new maps in" in an older thread was pretty good. But, we might even need that. This season, these "marginal" maps shouldn't be thrown out, but rather, allowed in, at the very least for the sake of preventing a stagnant and limited list.