- SoulJah
So, in Total Chaos? With megas and cloaks and invulns? - Drakona
meant to be played? so the original Descent level set? the game evolves....I played several no xs with you cuz it's what you enjoy....but u can't return the favor at all and play me in x4. If I can't get any x4 games with you then I suppose it's only fair that you don't get any no x games with me. save for what is required. give a little get a little bro. - Jediluke
You don't have to play every style, but the game as it was originally meant to be played really sucks. Every generation that touches it changes it, and there are many differently awesome styles to enjoy. I respect excellence in many of them, but supposing a particular one is supreme rubs me the wrong way. There's what more people like and care about, and what fewer people like and care about, and maybe what more or fewer people like and care about now vs in a different era. That is all. Nice win, though. - Drakona
"like it's meant to be played" is communally determined. Right now, that means the core level set -- and Ascend is a core level. - LotharBot
But at the same time... toughen up. Play opponents where they're strong instead of looking for your favored game all the time. Try a home-and-home series. And don't complain about how the other guy's home is BS. - LotharBot
Vamped NYPD followed by Wrath X4 Followed by random generator...i'd be down with that - Jediluke
I don't know if all niches are equal, though, Drak. There are popular levels that completely marginalize a large chunk of the game (like primary weapons or dogfighting), while other "ways of playing" are just different strategies one can employ in an arena that also allows one's opponents to utilize their chosen style. A map designed to force one specific element to the exclusion of an entire autonomous set of others (by which I mean a good player could be almost completely hobbled), such as Rat Hunt, can only be considered niche and does not have the same claim to "the way the game was meant to be played" under some relativistic interpretation. - deimos
I don't think it's that simple. One person will say Ugh is incredibly incomplete, and another will say it strips away distractions and measures critical essentials. One person will say Vamped is a reasonable standard, yet I find it frustratingly incomplete because I can't play the runner v runner fast pressure game that I typically can in DKH maps, and the missile game is hugely nerfed. Would you answer as the Ugh evangelist does that those games don't matter? Because I think they do. Not in some objective sense, but in the sense that I love them and I study them and I care about whether or not someone else is good at them. - Drakona
I'm not saying the idea of a complete level is total sophistry; I personally think Logic is as close as has ever been, and that's why I like it as a proving ground. And every time we talk about core, we try to exclude levels that are too obviously incomplete, without trying to be too biased about it. Complete levels are a thing, definitely. - Drakona
But I am saying that what skills we think are important and how much they matter is, at the end of the day, not an objective thing. It's a social thing. Your accomplishments mean what your peers think they mean. - Drakona
Personally, when I discover awesomeness -- whether it's Mark in (Untitled) or Jeds in Wrath x4 or Rethink in D2, my instinct is to want to study and celebrate and learn to overcome it. I mean, there are games I don't care about too, and that's a choice we all have the right to make. But to me, choosing to disregard a game you don't understand is the less excellent path as a pilot, and the less honorable one in terms of making the community a happier place -- we all like to see our excellence recognized. So it is one I rarely take. Conversely, telling someone their skills don't matter pisses them off, and makes the community a worse place. They worked hard for those skills, and the respect of their peers is the only reward they can possibly hope for. There's a subtle trade here; identifying the things we do and don't respect is how we as a community keep things awesome . . . but if we all chose only to regard what we were good at, it would suck. - Drakona
souljah has a point, you guys - melvin
X's suck. I read every word of this. - Cyrus
Preaching about being honorable in a jediluke match that he lost and told the guy to "grow a set" even though he agreed to the settings and level. Laughable. Talk about community building etc. Sorry, but this is honestly insane . - moh
moh, I'm sure you knew this already...but you're a dick. and if it takes one to know one....well. I'm ok with that. - Jediluke
and for the record....SJ doesn't 'have' to play me in an x4 match. They are what I enjoy. I 'want' him to play me in an x4 match...in several x4 matches actually. I play what he likes to play (which is no x's) I just thought it would be nice if he reciprocated once in awhile. The grow a set comment is friendly banter to goad him in to a game of x4 with me. He's a great pilot...he should have balls enough to step into the ring with me in an x4 match and see what it's all about. :) - Jediluke
x's still suck. Fight me. - Cyrus
Unless your tougher. - Cyrus
A couple of Moh's comments have been deleted. Moh - You're being toxic and it isn't welcome. You've been warned about this before. You've lost your match commenting privileges. Everyone else -- carry on, you're fine. Healthy discussion. - Drakona
Back on topic -- maybe I'm overly sensitive about this, and maybe I read something into SJ's comment he didn't mean, but it did anger me. There's a group of players that seem to think any evolution of the game up until 1999 is all good, anything since then is illegitimate. That's . . . really kind of silly. Say what you will about different eras of Descent history, but we've had over 9000 matches on this ladder over almost three years, at an incredibly high level of competition. Game's gonna evolve. It can't not. - Drakona
There's a reason Ascend (no x's) is part of the core -- it's a nice solid level that allows for a lot of tactical variety, and which a lot of pilots like. There's a definite contest of wills in terms of each player trying to impose their style on the other, and if you get beat in there, there are no excuses. That said, I grow weary of the back-and-forth style-sniping in match comments, as if you're playing "Descent as it's mean to be played" when you play a particular style, and playing some other style is "bullshit Descent". Live and let live. And if you want to be a tough competitor, learn to take on opponents in what they're strong at -- don't be afraid of Jeds in Wrathx4 or Mark in ForteNM or me in Octave Pro or bahamut in ugh. Playing under a variety of constraints is part of what makes this game interesting, particularly for people who are seriously competitive. Respect tough opponents in their favored games/styles/levels and give them props instead of whining. - LotharBot
Ahh, yes! I remember why I left now. - ERNIE392
#primariesfirst #secondariesforareason #4xlivesdontmatter - melvin
#missileswerebrokenin1999 #smartsareinterestingnow #maximumheatisawesome - Drakona
I think I've been very reasonable and fair in our matches even offering to play x2 more often then not. You act as if just because you play me in original vanilla descent no X's i owe you a match for some reason in x4. We've played x2 many times but you've never played me in a NH level to put it in the same perspective think about that for a minute. Should i say something to you like grow a set and maybe you will play a no homer level? Rarely if like EVER do you ever choose a map from a list I name its always me choosing a level from what you like so let's be REAL here for a minute and don't sugar coat this, You guys are acting as if I've never played x anything before its ridiculous. Reminds me of back i nthe day when i was accused of small ship hacking and everyone jumped on that bandwagon just because certain people said so what a joke that was. I'm comprimising to add more missles to the game in a x2 match but every time i ask for NH it's always a no and some kind ofpersonal attack - SoulJah
gotta agree with SoulJah on that last point. Lifetime, Jeds v Soul 26 matches. 7 of them would qualify for an x trophy (logic, athena, crimson with x's) and there are 4 more in athena (16 homers). There's only one vamped nypd game, counterbalanced by a Mega NYSA game. There's a Fuzed x2 and Athena LH, and the rest are or were core levels. Seems a little bit unfair for Jeds to say "grow a pair". - LotharBot
but I also have to push back on the other side -- there's way too much whining and complaining about the x4 game that goes by in match comments (often for games that weren't x'ed, just people complaining about how other people are playing "wrong"), and in some of the responses here. Is it my favorite game mode? Nope, I like it slightly more than I like D2 -- good for about 2% of my matches, which isn't much. But it's a legit game mode, just like D2, just like fusion-only, just like disorientation, and it teaches you things that are applicable to the rest of your games too. It's OK if you don't like it or don't want to play it; you don't have to play it, no matter how much crap Jeds gives you for it. But we could do with a lot fewer snide comments about how other peoples' preferred game modes suck or "aren't real Descent". - LotharBot
This thread reads like both sides feel oppressed, which is interesting. Numbers vs power (players first, I know. im not saying anything bad about ladder admins, only noting it's the 3 ladder admins vs a handful of non admins) Say D2 sucks, no one bats an eye, say x4 sucks and you're tossed in with the "whiners". Also, am i nuts or has there been some white washing of history. Was jeds first comment edited? That's not what i remember reading last night. Last, drak your hashtags are stinky! - melvin
I don't care when people say x4 sucks. I care when they say skills there are worthless. I worked pretty darn hard for those skills tyvm. - Drakona
This has sure got me thinking, though. Our attitude toward . . . attitudes . . . has changed a lot over the years. Season 1, we were heavily influenced by model citizens like DKH, DJCJR, Mark392, me . . . it was very much a Be nice! Be honorable! We'll come after you if you call someone stinky! atmosphere. I remember having conversations with people about unacceptable match comments. A year or two went by, and Merl came along, and then Morfod, and we were like, "You know, this trash talk -- this is real. This is what we are." And we relaxed a lot about insults, and went to a philosophy of "It's not a problem unless it's a problem". Like, if you actually seriously bother someone, we're going to require you to resolve it, but if someone bothers you, tell them so, and we'll expect them to quit. But it's occurring to me that one of the results of this policy is what we see here. Sniping about style, personal insults during level negotiation, and I'm thinking . . - Drakona
. . . maybe we need to go back to the season 1 style a little bit? Like, I hated, hated the attitude policing stuff on IDL and I don't want to go down that road. But at the same time, maybe some of this stuff is a genuine problem, and we should do more than tell people to work it out. - Drakona
I cut Jeds in particular a lot of slack because several times over the run of the ladder, he's done something that was a serious problem for someone, and we asked him to knock it off, and he DID. If you tell him he's being a problem, he fixes it, and seriously -- that's all I care about. But it occurs to me that that leads to a population of people who are quietly bothered who don't realize what they're supposed to do is speak up and say, "Seriously dude, it bothers me when you do that, knock it off." They may not realize saying that has serious legal teeth so to speak, and that's how it's supposed to work right now. - Drakona
But maybe that isn't enough. I've always said some things are always over the line, like seriously calling someone a cheater. But maybe some other things should be, too. Much as I want people to be able to be real about what styles they respect, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, reacts well to being told what they're good at doesn't count. - Drakona
say D2 sucks once and nobody bats an eye. But say D2 sucks over and over again, and people start to get irritated. There's a transition from "playful banter" to "clear disrespect" that I think the ladder has collectively crossed recently when it comes to high-missile games, and I'm requesting that people take it down a notch (per Drak's comments: I'm pointing out that it's become a problem and I'm asking people to resolve it.) You don't have to learn to like x4, but don't disrespect the hard work and skill development some people have put in to get good at it. As for modified comments, it's possible Jeds deleted and rewrote his comment before the next comment was posted, but he doesn't have access to edit it beyond that. Drakona is the only one with database access, and the only modifications she made were removing moh's later flames (at my request; I was the one who made the call to remove his commenting privileges.) Finally, Melvin, your MOM's hashtags are stinky! - LotharBot
This is becoming a serious conversation. Let's continue it in a better venue. http://descentchampions.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&;t=750 - Drakona
for the record my comment was not altered in any way shape or form. it's my one and only original comment. - Jediluke